After reading the comments for Well What Should She Do?, I am concerned…
“What heterosexual man do you know who WOULDN’T pounce on an opportunity for free lovin’ from any woman (gawky or otherwise) where she has practically drawn a road map for him to follow? He’s gay, babe,” commented Anon.
I have never had sex with someone just because she wanted to have sex with me. Never has my desire been, “just because.” I can’t even conceive of it, actually. I am not an opportunist, a bottom-feeder, or, like dogs, an indiscriminate eater.
Actually, after having gone on a metric billion dates, if she doesn’t do it for me right away, it probably will never happen.
Is this odd? Is this strange? I am not saying I never hook up or play, but it is only and always with someone to whom I am attracted, and not merely just physically.
Since I have had all of these questions, I am going to ask Dr. Sadie Allison some of the best ones since she is a sex advice goddess.
If you have any questions for her, let me know, and I will pass them on…
Now that I think about it, I have never hooked up with someone who was good on paper. I have never hooked up with someone for whom I have not felt strong chemistry. I have never done it “just because.”
Is that typical guy behavior? I know lots of guys, and more of them than not feel the same with as I do.
To me, people who do shit just because they can are fools, are dangerous, are short game, are pathetic, and are the kind of chaos-seekers who are never quite aware of all the bodies and hearts and hurt they leave swirling in their wakes.
Both men and women.
I generally think these things through and have insight and circumspection even when drunk and even when in the throws of passion. When people tell me they did it because they just got swept away in the moment, I just assume that that person is feeble-minded, foolish, easy, stupid — well, I am joking, I actually think they’re in denial and want to shirk responsibility.
That’s what I think.
{ 8 comments… read them below or add one }
“I am not an opportunist, a bottom-feeder, or, like dogs, an indiscriminate eater.”
I think anyone who can vouch for the sanctity of a “friends with benefits” relationship is actually all these things. See, your article re: DC dating and insurance policies. Qualifying your statment that your “opportunities” were less than indiscriminate b/c you’ve actually been attracted to her and there was mutual agreement as to the parameters of the relationship is no less comforting (or qualifying for that matter).
And to this I say (to quote you) people who have these fwb relationships..people
“who do [this] shit just because they can are fools, are dangerous, are short game, are pathetic, and are the kind of chaos-seekers who are never quite aware of all the bodies and hearts and hurt they leave swirling in their wakes.”
“Qualifying your statment that your “opportunities” were less than indiscriminate b/c you’ve actually been attracted to her and there was mutual agreement as to the parameters of the relationship is no less comforting (or qualifying for that matter).”
Well, it is to me, because these are usually long-term relationships that are based on a level or depth, of friendship, and of intimacy.
They are not one-night stands, they are long-term and end either over the natural course of things or when one of both of the members find someone special.
It is actually quite a fantastic arrangement. I mean, there are two choices as a single person who has yet to find a partner or girlfriend in the city: go through random partners like kleenex (indiscriminate feeder) or find someone one is attracted to, trusts, with whom one is attracted, and then spend this time with that person while dating dating. To me, this is just good strategy; otherwise, one might feel compelled to just pick up women at the bars, and that is just bad politics, bad karma, and almost never ends well. For me, anyway. I just can’t do it. Some can and god bless them.
Besides, these articles, in most cases, are reflections of DC culture rather than personal poison pen diaries, dumbass.
This proves that you generally don’t “get” what I am doing here, which is fine with me.
Oooooo. Hurling insults are we? Have I hit a nerve? Is the pen, in fact, mightier than the sword? Why, Chris, I am disappointed in your unkindness here. In the spirit of debate, and even a harsh one at that, you show your hand too quickly by proving you have been wounded in combat. And one cannot help but wonder why this is so if you have fully and completely bought into your own argument in support of Friends with Benefits.
“Dumbass???. I guess that would be an apropos label for just about anyone who dare spit in the wind as I just have for indeed, that is what this argument amounts to. My opinion on the value and intimacy associated with having or engaging in sexual intimacy with a lover, emphasis on love, is truly held by a minority of people. The concept of a “friend with benefits??? (FWB) and your portrayaI, indeed your exoneration of it, as the equivalent of the intimacy shared by two people who genuinely love, respect and VALUE each other is shocking to someone like me. FWB’s are participants in a maddening game of “who will debase the other first???. Maybe, instead of coolest CEO of the Year Awards, you should start handing out Greatest FWB Awards and then break them up into subcategories so that you can cover all the wretched participants who may feel slighted when they fail to receive at least honorary recognition.
But really, let’s break this FWB down to its essence b/c I believe I can save you and your so called friends a whole-lotta grief. To begin, the participants in the FWB entanglement are using each other physically. Why? B/c as you mentioned, they believe they are entitled to “based on a level or depth, of friendship, and of intimacy??? they apparently share or have shared at some point with each other. How “deep??? (meaning, meaningful) can this relationship be when ultimately you are saying to one another, “uh, listen, until something better comes along, you’ll do in a pinch???. What sort of “friend??? would ask this of another? And how much depth is there really in this sort of intimacy when really you are saying to each other ‘you are a vessel that I will use and discard when I am through???. Yeah, this is definitely the making of a really great “friend???. Why would anyone pursue something this cruel when all it will lead to is confusion, awkwardness, and emotional stagnation. (And we won’t even dive into how debasing it is for you both.)
You can argue all you want that “this is a fantastic arrangement??? and mutually agreeable to both so where’s the harm? But you are both damaged goods and emotionally stupefied because you have so little respect for each other that any attempt to shroud it in terms of friendship, deep mutual understanding or (blech) intimacy is purely misplaced. You aren’t fully moving on from each other, yet at some point you’ve decided that, for whatever reason, it was not working out. You cannot embark upon a new a glorious relationship with someone else b/c not only do you have to disclose this whole FWB setup that you have to the new gal (otherwise you are a complete creep for not mentioning it to the new one), you also have to cut the FWB gal off from the “goods???. Right there you are looking at potentially two really pissed off women and frankly, you’d have an easier time of it if you stuck your hand in a hornets nest, snatched out whatever you could grab and force fed it up your ass. That impending pain would be more tolerable than the fury you’ll face from these two women who are destined to discover each other at some really inopportune time. And good luck with that one.
FWB’s are damaged goods, both of you really, b/c you are still entangled with this other idiot who has lowered herself/himself to this ridiculous non-standard of being – this non-standard of loving. And if you share yourself with someone for the end objective of reaching climax or sexual pleasure without any love or REAL intimacy, I’m sure even Dr. Sadie would agree, there are other ways to achieve this without trammeling on the ego and delicate “friendship??? of your social set. Go ahead, ask her. In fact, that would be my throw the bone question to the lovely Dr. Sadie.
My notion of intimacy and why I would never give myself sexually to a man unless we were committed to each other AND deeply and genuinely in love, diverges from you because I am unwilling to allow myself to be used in such a hateful way and I could never use my “friends??? in such a demoralizing way. I value them too much. You said it yourself:
They are not one-night stands, they are long-term and end either over the natural course of things or when one of both of the members find someone special.
Emphasis on special. Already you each admit there is nothing “special??? about this arrangement and there is nothing “special??? b/t the two of you when you use each other this way. And each and every time you do this with each other, you devalue the relationship further. Eventually, there will be nothing special at all b/t the two of you and you will have steered yourselves so far off course that there is no hope of returning to treating each other decently or with dignity. Justifying this as a lesser of two evils – “either you have the FWB or you pick up women in a bar – go through random partners like Kleenex??? – demonstrates just how out of step you are with the character required when it is time to let someone go for whatever reason. Hey, here’s a novel idea. How about not engaging someone sexually until you are ready to move on from the last one and/or simply abstaining until the “right one??? comes along or (perish the thought) until you are married.
Craving a warm body, any body, and getting yourself serviced in the process is not fulfilling from an emotional standpoint and even the endorphin rush or high you experience for a few hours afterward won’t compensate for the huge let down you’ll experience when she leaves. (Cue crickets chirping here.) Just let them go and move on. Is reaching a climax so paramount that FWB’s are willing to sacrifice their dignity to achieve it? Move on. Why create or invite this train wreck?
And you can shout from the rooftops that this is the norm, the culture of city dwellers and that your writing is merely a “reflection of city culture.??? But really, you are deluding yourself and perhaps a little myopic. And I do “get??? what you are trying to do here…but in your effort to generate debate and reflect your cultural experiences, you also have a tendency to be its advocate as well and I most certainly feel its my duty as a woman to strike at this issue b/c no woman should tolerate this gig, and neither should a man. Go masturbate for God’s sake and get it over with. Quit pissing around where y’all eat and stop using each other this way.
And if you need the road map, here it is: when two people who love each other and are committed to each other they long for each other in a way that makes them hungry for nothing else. I know the heightened pleasure and sense of satisfaction and emotional fulfillment I get from knowing that I am offering myself only to him and he only to me, without question. Pure trust. I long to feel his warm breath on my skin and his body pressed against mine because I can give myself to him without reservation. I have no entanglements. I have no ghosts whispering in my ear. I have no duty to anyone else but him and vice versa. And my senses are on fire and I am eager to please him because he is mine and mine alone and I know that tomorrow he will still be mine and I his and we enjoy that and want that and accept no substitutes. FWB’s don’t have this. FWB’s do it “just because??? and sadly, they may reach the highpoint of that moment, the act of sexual intercourse, as will I, but there exists no certainty in their standing with each other and no longevity to speak of– don’t fool yourself there. FWB’s know they are disposable and will act accordingly.
And this is why I say (to parrot your own words) FWB’s are the fools, are dangerous, are short game, are pathetic, and are the kind of chaos-seekers who are never quite aware of all the bodies and hearts and hurt they leave swirling in their wakes.
To quote one of the greats. :>) Still think I am a dumbass?
Brava, Spice.
Isn’t that what modern marriage, most of which ends in divorce, is anyway?
Are you in a marriage that is sound? Are you, like a swan, mated for life?
Are you looking at us from your nuclear family, smug and connected?
Or, have you found yourself lying next to someone you don’t know any more?
How long have you been in a relationship feeling like you’re married or connected to your FWB?
How long have you been involved in the relationship looking over the 700 count sheets thinking, “until something better comes along, you’ll do in a pinch.”
Or even, good God, what have I done and who is this person?
It sounds like we both suffer from making very human decisions based on pride, love, feelings of attachment, and a human need for simple touch, connection, and family, both of which have ended in devastating failure. The only difference may be that my path is considered popularly less noble, less officiated, and less familial.
All I can say is that when this FWB ices out, which it is doing as we speak, I am still in possession of a friend, someone I love, someone with whom I have had amazing connection and a lot of history, and zero lawyer or judge involvement.
We are both dumbasses, that’s for sure. My mistake was never officiated; although, of course, I have not come through unscathed, I am also not a divorce, a divorcee, or saddled with an alimony.
So, I think it is a wash. Oh, and I have never felt personally and physically threatened or stalked by my FWB or the women I date.
We are both dumbasses; we are all dumbasses.
Let me boil this down:
You interpretation of a relationship “ideal form” is beautiful but I guarantee that both you and I have done our best at attaining it and I bet you both you and I have screwed the pooch with regards to realizing it.
And for me, I would rather have what I have than anything else, like being in a loveless marriage, being a divorce, or being a single parent.
I would rather be alone and never have a major love relationship and marriage with someone I know I will be with forever than enter boldly into something that can become so corrupted, so insane, and so untenable that my family is convinced I may be maimed, murdered, or disappeared.
My friends and my family, at its worst, just felt sad, protective, and ashamed of my desperate behaviors.
And I can live with that.
Point for Point.
1. Isn’t that what modern marriage, most of which ends in divorce, is anyway?
Hardly, and I fail to see how you can draw any comparison b/t FWB and marriage.
2. Are you in a marriage that is sound? Are you, like a swan, mated for life? ..Are you looking at us from your nuclear family, smug and connected?
I was in a marriage that was sound. I was mated for life. Sadly, I had to kill him when he stopped putting out. And the odd thing is, now that he’s gone, I am quite smug and well connected and with my nuclear family intact. Just don’t tell the authorities where I’ve buried the body. And despite the fact that I had voluntarily dissolved that “arrangement”, it does not prompt me to jump in the sack with anyone to help fill that void, that human gap.
3. (This is a compound point). Have you found yourself lying next to someone you don’t know any more? How long have you been in a relationship feeling like you’re married or connected to your FWB? How long have you been involved in the relationship looking over the 700 count sheets thinking, “until something better comes along, you’ll do in a pinch.”
The moment I found myself lying next to someone I didn’t want or know anymore, I ended it. And I’ve never looked over my silky satin thread counts and remarked “you’ll do in a pinch” b/c I value myself and my relationship with the rest of the world far too much. It’s just how I am.
4. Re: “I would rather be alone and never have a major love relationship and marriage with someone I know I will be with forever than enter boldly into something that can become so corrupted, so insane, and so untenable that my family is convinced I may be maimed, murdered, or disappeared.”
That’s a risk we all share by virtue of living on this planet and craving human interaction and contact. The fact that yours was never officiated (which I really felt was bang on.. gosh I appreciate your accuracy sometimes), the original point you made was that you were not bottom feeding, you were discriminant, and not an opportunist. I believe FWB is all these things b/c you are pooling your pleasure from a familiar grouping, because its simply there and convenient, and without any concern or thought to the hatred and self-loathing and problems this generates for you and your partners.
And as I follow along with you website, b/c I have truly enjoyed your provocative style of writing, I too count myself among those people in your life who “felt sad and protective” of your behavior because you have qualities that should only be shared and exchanged with the best, brightest and most gifted in this world and to constantly throw these talents and your generosity at someone who cares little if nothing about them, then, sadly, you are doing yourself a disservice and ruining your heart for the next brilliant, gorgeous, wonderful woman who truly deserves it. And I can say this with confidence b/c anyone who has the intelligence and wit that you do to say something like (i.e., If you came with a warning label, what would it say? Commitment-phobic: for recreational use only.)
or can find an artist like Rachel Yagamata and understand the impact of lyrics like this:
No thanks, no more, no love
I’m done, I’ve had enough
Going off with her, though wish I was
There’s one I never can be
Just because
Alright be on your way
The kindest thing to say
Is not that you have fallen for me say
But come back to my arms again some day
Baby, tell the world about
How you can shed me out
You must find a way
To see me one more time
And please call up all your friends
Tell them it can’t end
You don’t know what you’d do
If you lost her, lost me too.
That’s good, that’s fine, that’s nice
I understand the price
The cost of craving dark instead of light
Flip a coin to see if you still care some might
My blood, my hand, my soul
I throw them unto to you without control
The things I’d freely give you stole
And now I’m left in pieces
Oh baby tell the world about me
The way you won me over
In a city you can’t remember
I think it was September
Sweet September, oh
Its okay, oh its alright
I’m gonna need you more then I do
And I wouldn’t want to spare you
And there’s one thing that you’ve gotta do
You gotta tell the world about the girl you once knew
Say, wasn’t meant to be
But you fell so very deeply
In love
With me.
To all the girls he’s loved.
To all the girls he’s loved.
….means that you have got your finger of the pulse of a woman and you are wasting yourself by not sharing this with anyone new, or rather, someone who would cherish these things and not use you in such a debasing way.
Wow, that was wonderful. I guess you’re not a dumbass. I think you’re a smart ass.
Yes, that I am. At least we can finally agree on something.